Very Long Post - Blog Posts

A Fabulous analyzes and breakdown, Rebecca is one of those characters who I know a lot feel could have had done more with, Rebecca could work as a really fun kill them with kindness character, yes she has all these flaws but she just seems so confident and sure that they don't get that she isn't and that's just a cover.

Let's Talk About Rebecca:

Well, I said we needed to talk about Rebecca, and here we are.

To begin with, I would like to preface this with a simple disclaimer: I am in no way telling people to like or dislike the version of Rebecca found in BWBA, but instead looking into what caused such a deep disdain for this character, one that lasted long after Henry had been departed and was fuelled not by her position as a ‘replacement’, but rather by the series itself. This is not a dissertation on why Henry is a stronger character and why Rebecca should never have been introduced - that is counterproductive and, in some ways, false. This is instead something adjacent to an essay in which I will focus on how Rebecca’s flawed introduction, characterisation and tenure in the series both represents the BWBA era as a whole, but also what led to her being notably absent from All Engines Go, the reboot of Thomas and Friends. This will be followed by me attempting to redesign her characterisation and create an alternate version of Rebecca, one which in my opinion would have done far better for herself in the series. 

Part 1: Who is Rebecca, and Why Her Characterisation Doesn't Work:

According to the former official Thomas and Friends website, Rebecca is: “...a very cheerful and happy engine. She is painted a sunshine yellow which reflects her positive outlook on life. Rebecca always sees the best in others and enjoys helping everyone around her feel good about themselves. Despite her warm nature, Rebecca is not afraid to stand up for herself or her friends. She is a big, strong tender engine who is not intimidated by the more experienced engines on the railway. Rebecca is the number 22 engine.” 

Already, there is a major issue here: her characterisation is a strange amalgamation of others, who could probably just as easily take on her roles without really breaking any of the episodes she is in. “Cheerful and happy” are characteristics held by Ryan, Stanley, Whiff, Thomas, Percy, Edward, Mavis, Peter Sam; the list goes on. There are already far too many engines whose main qualities are cheerful and happy. She is painted yellow - like Molly and Flora were, or if we go further back, like Jock, Pip and Emma were. “Sees the best in others” was once upon a time a quality unique to Edward, as well as Salty. “Enjoys helping everyone around her feel good about themselves” sounds way too close to what Emily has become in the series, without mentioning the evolutions of Mavis’ character or Rocky’s character. If we add in her clumsiness and shyness, we get Kevin and Molly respectively - and Kevin is also yellow! She isn’t intimidated nor does she have any trouble at all with fending off engines who want to be mean to her. She isn’t unique here either: Duck did this when he first arrived, and he had a much bigger and more notable impact because of how he acted when confronted with the big engines' attitudes. What all this really means is that Rebecca has already finished a character arc at some point in the past and does not need to grow further. 

And here we reach the crux of the problem with Rebecca in BWBA: she has nowhere for her character to grow into - something all the other main characters have done decades ago. This is especially problematic at this late stage in the show; Thomas & Friends has been running since 1984, and almost every character they pair Rebecca up with has had an exceptionally long time to bed themselves in and grow into the space they occupy. For Rebecca to compete, and truly qualify for her status as a main character, her character needs to make its own space - and importantly, make that space bigger than as many other characters as possible. This is a running problem in the TV series post Season 7, and something that really baked itself into the show by the time the series reached CGI: the characters do not develop. The Steam Team (bar Emily) hasn’t had any real, natural character developments since the Mitton era - not any sustained over multiple seasons, at least. If we go back to the Classic series - or further back to the Railway Series - we find that the very essence of Thomas is in its strong characters and their natural growth. Gordon grows into being more humble, Edward and Henry grow more confident in themselves, Thomas and Percy mature and (to some extent) learn their limits - the list goes on. There are characters that do not grow as much or remain the same, yes - but they still have some sort of character arc where the essence of them as a character is tested. 

Rebecca does not undergo character growth in the series, and her character itself is not tested in any meaningful way. Instead, she is overused and underutilised - by which I mean, she appears constantly throughout the series but is given nothing to define her as being any different to any of the characters mentioned above. Worse yet, Rebecca’s leads are easily interchangeable with any other Steam Team member, and this further complicates her. Rebecca takes trucks perfectly - like Donald or Douglas would, or perhaps Edward? Rebecca is too fast and leaves passengers behind - like Peter Sam did to the refreshment lady. And when she causes all kinds of delay, is that not like James did way back in Series 3? And she’s tricked by Diesel… like almost every single engine in the entire series, going as far back as Gordon, Henry and James were in Series 2. 

Would it have been better to divide Rebecca’s leads up and give other, more established engines more spotlight? Probably. Her personality is similar to a number of others, and her introduction is basically a mix and mash of older episodes - notably the eighth series episode, Thomas and the Tuba, the tenth series episode, Seeing the Sights, the first series episode, Thomas' Train, and the fourth series episode, Peter Sam and the Refreshment Lady. This really doesn’t help to define her, especially when all fans think about when they watch the episode is what other, older episode it is most like. Her subsequent appearances do very little to endear her either, both due to the lack of effort put in by Mattel to ground Rebecca in the series and the low impact of the episodes she does star in. Characters like Oliver or Duke have had lasting impacts on the fandom despite their short tenures because their episodes have high impact. Duck is one of the most popular characters in the fandom of this show, despite having been a secondary character ever since Series 5, and being practically absent from the series between Series 8 and Series 16.

Rebecca also takes up a difficult spot as a replacement for Henry, which complicates her relationship with a large portion of the fandom, meaning a lot of her as a character is questioned in relation to what Henry would have done. While technically, Rebecca was slated as a replacement to Edward, her arrival coincides with Henry’s departure, and thus for the purposes of this, we will consider her to have taken the position Henry had, similarly to Nia and Edward. Whether or not Henry’s departure from the main cast is a bad thing is an issue unto itself, which dives into character assassination and to what extent the Henry seen in Season 21 is the same Henry seen in Season 1. In either case, Rebecca’s roles could have quite easily been filled by Henry or another standing character, and her characterisation is too similar to other, pre-existing characters to make her stand out amongst her costars and their longer, more notable characterisations and character growths. 

Much of this is compounded by how Rebecca was introduced and integrated into the main cast, which is clearly seen when compared with another notable case of an engine joining the Steam Team after it had been first codified: Emily. 

Part 2: Rebecca vs Emily - How to Introduce a Main Character: 

Rebecca’s introduction is extremely underwhelming, especially for a Steam Team member. Thomas and Gordon shared the very first episode, Edward established himself as a foil to Gordon in his introduction and in Henry’s first appearance, he is bricked up in a tunnel in perhaps one of the series’ most infamous and iconic episodes. James makes his grand entrance by crashing into a field, Percy nearly gets destroyed by Gordon and Toby tugs on the viewer’s heartstrings as we watch him lose his entire livelihood. Moving forward several seasons, Emily’s introduction includes her saving another engine from a terrible accident - and then lastly, Nia gets an entire movie to embed her. Rebecca just bumbles about for ten minutes and takes the final shed at Tidmouth. 

To make matters worse, Henry’s departure is equally low-intensity. Edward at least got a full episode; Henry got a single line, used to further Gordon’s character as opposed to finalising Henry’s arc and introducing Rebecca’s. And while Gordon’s character here is interesting and new and possibly the first real growth we’ve seen from any of the Steam Team since Henry, Toby and Percy regressed into children before CGI even began; it does nothing to create a satisfactory conclusion to Henry’s arc or properly build up Rebecca’s arrival. This ultimately undermines Rebecca’s position as a primary character in the series, where she has joined far too late in the series to make an impact without dedicated time and effort being put into her. 

We are expected to accept that Rebecca has simply arrived and is now a main character by the show without any reasoning behind this. There is no connection between the viewer and Rebecca to justify this promotion to main character status, and it is telling. The writers don’t have anything new or unique to say about Rebecca either and it reflects in her episodes, which are remixes of old episodes or bland and unoriginal. This is especially painful in an era when so much of the writing is like this, bar the few episodes that really manage to break through the white noise. Ironically, two of the episodes that do really stand out have Edward and Toby as main characters respectively. 

In contrast, Emily is very well introduced to her position and has a long, notable character arc that plays out across both the Classic and HiT eras to cement her as a main character before making her a permanent member of the Steam Team - a journey that endeared her to fans and helped to build her characterisation to make her unique and interesting. Emily is first introduced in Season 7, where she has a strong introductory story played out against Thomas where she steals Annie and Clarabel and then rescues Oliver from a nasty accident. I’m not entirely certain, but this might be the first time that an engine takes Annie and Clarabel without asking - prior to this, Percy and Duck both got permission or it wasn’t mentioned. And after this episode, Emily does not immediately move into Tidmouth Sheds - she remains at Knapford, despite having further notable appearances across the rest of the season. 

What is made apparent in Season 7 is her characterisation. Emily is brave and bossy, but kind-hearted. She doesn’t headline constantly either, instead playing off other characters and rolling into the background when needed. She slots naturally into a secondary role in this season and feels like an engine who belongs on the NWR. Season 7 introduces Emily to viewers and gives her characterisation to back up her unique appearance. Season 8 continued this trend, building on her more and pairing her up with different engines to settle her comfortably into being a proper presence on the island - notice how it’s an evolution over two seasons? By Calling All Engines, Emily is a main character by virtue of her cementing herself into the cast, and her berth at Tidmouth feels like a natural progression of her story, firmly planting Emily as a Steam Team member. By Season 11, she is being used as a primary character to bounce newbies like Whiff off of! 

When considering Emily and Rebecca, two takeaways make themselves known: firstly, that characters need time and effort to be cemented in the story, especially when introduced long after most other central characters have had time to imbed themselves; and secondly that characters need strong, interesting differences when compared to those they share the screen with in order to fill unfilled positions. Emily is brave and bossy, giving her a unique style that makes her work great either as the protagonist or antagonist of a story. It gives her character flexibility - she can either be the engine that the protagonist is paired up with to learn something from or it can make her big-headed and in need of being taught a lesson of her own, one which she will - in her own way - try and pass on. We don’t meet someone with a truly bossy personality like Emily’s again until Bradford, and even then it isn’t the same. Bradford is used as a comedic character, whereas Emily’s bossiness was treated seriously. 

In comparison, Rebecca’s characterisation causes her to fade where she needs to shine. By being given a personality that has already been used consistently in Thomas, she fails to have a lasting impact and the abruptness of her introduction and elevation to the Steam Team is jarring and gives older viewers no reason to be interested in her. When combining this with the few defining qualities she has, it is equally hard for Rebecca to intrigue new viewers, making her feel bland and unoriginal when compared to many of the characters she shares the screen with. Rebecca is asked to attempt and hold her own against characters who have been intentionally woven together by the series for decades - and as explained above, this is not an impossible feat. It is not an impossible feat in the CGI series either, as Hiro, Paxton and Marion have all managed to stand out in an era when characters very rarely got much character building beyond their introduction. Unfortunately, Rebecca is given none of the same care, and it is reflected in how little she is used. Despite appearing more often as the seasons continue, she gets fewer leads to the point where she has an equal number of leads to Toby in the final season.  

Emily and Rebecca are two sides of the same coin in terms of introduction, both first appearing in an episode rather than a movie and then becoming members of the main cast - the difference is that where Rebecca was shunted in and thus the writers were unsure how to use her, Emily’s careful character-building and integration into the series ensured she would always have fans, something that is reflected in her being given a proper conclusion to her character arc in Series 24, where she is given the number twelve and thus immortalised in the same way that Thomas through to Oliver were. 

Considering the above issues, it becomes quite clear that the potential best way to introduce Rebecca and have audiences become invested in her and her story is not to simply drop her into the series, but rather to build her up slowly, similarly to Emily - which was entirely possible and plausible. 

Part 3: What Could Have Been: 

If we assume that Mattel was fixated on Rebecca having her canon characterisation as well as the BWBA series, there is still an entirely plausible method that could naturally build her character into the main cast, though it is underpinned by the original intent of the showrunners to have her introduced in Series 21 and replace Edward: 

In Series 21, Rebecca is introduced and shown to be clumsy but kind. In keeping with the original episode, she messes up the express and gets in trouble, however she then redeems herself by rescuing Gordon when he breaks down with the express. She is shown to be clumsy but kind, and gets the lead in a couple of episodes, as well as several minor roles. Preferably, she stars in at least one episode with Thomas specifically. At the same time, audiences are introduced to Henry’s dilemma surrounding whether or not he should sleep at Tidmouth - be it cause of the Kipper, arguments with Gordon, or whatever. This both places Rebecca into audiences’ minds while simultaneously opening up the question of whether or not Henry will remain at Tidmouth. Edward leaves, but the shed remains open - this is filled by Nia. 

Continuing in this vein, in Series 22, Rebecca gets a couple more episodes than last season, specifically with both primary and notable secondary characters - I’m talking Duck, Oliver, Rosie, Daisy, Ryan - characters who are popular, relevant to the series and allows the series to cement her as a main addition to the cast. This is to cement her and give her plenty of characters to bounce off and develop relationships with. Meanwhile, Henry’s arc comes to a conclusion and Henry quits Tidmouth in the last episode of the season, leaving it open. This also allows the creators to build up Gordon’s reaction to Henry leaving, showing his struggle to adapt to Edward’s absence and his simmering disdain towards Nia for replacing Edward before the 23rd season. 

Finally, in Series 23, Rebecca takes the empty berth at Tidmouth, replacing Henry and kickstarting an episode - or preferably two, but this is Mattel, so it is likely to be one - where Rebecca is forced to withstand the brunt of Gordon’s anger as he boils over, being compared to Henry before proving herself. This plants her firmly as a main character, while also potentially giving her a strong reason to become close friends with Nia - who also had to deal with Gordon’s stubbornness. Henry is given a proper farewell arc as well, allowing him to gracefully retire to his secondary character status. 

By arranging Rebecca’s arrival over several seasons, she is given time to fall naturally into her position and role, developing slowly and making the connections with other characters needed to cement her position on the NWR before taking centre-stage. This would also help writers learn how to write her, creating a scenario where Rebecca has a real chance of taking off as a character and potentially even getting similar stories to Emily where she is the lead main character who is used to introduce new characters - like how Emily interacted with Whiff in the eleventh season. This would also help viewers to understand who Rebecca is and get comfortable with her presence in the show before being asked to accept her as a member of the Steam Team. 

However, I still feel like her characterisation is weak in comparison to other Steam Team members - as mentioned previously, her clumsiness has been done by several characters including Kevin and Percy, who is a fellow Steam Team member. Her “Cheerful and Happy” characterisation has been used by far too many characters to count - including Percy, Peter Sam, Derek, Stanley and more recently Ryan - and not even her bright yellow paintwork makes her unique in terms of the series, seeing as Molly and Flora both had similarly bright shades of yellow for paintwork back in the model series. Moreover, her leads place her in relatively generic situations where other characters likely would have produced far more interesting plotlines, such as Molly easily pulling trucks despite being built for expresses or James trying to prove he can still pull the express and getting into trouble. Based on this, a complete overhaul of Rebecca’s characterisation is needed. 

Part 4: How to Redevelop Rebecca as a Character: 

When designing a Thomas and Friends character, one of the first things required is a real-life basis - and Rebecca was given a very interesting and unique basis that had the potential to give her very interesting stories. Rebecca is a Bulleid Light Pacific, in particular an unrebuilt West Country Class.  These were strong, powerful mixed traffic Pacifics used by the Southern Railway from 1945 until 1967, giving them a lifetime of about 22 years. They were praised for their free steaming, excellent boilers, and had a number of notable innovations for British steam - including welded fireboxes and frames, as opposed to the traditional, riveted system. The class was also well-known for their availability, being able to pull trains on almost every line that the Southern Railway had. 

In contrast, the class was also very famous for their flaws. Remember, Rebecca is an unrebuilt West Country Class, which had many of the same problems and flaws as their larger Merchant Navy Class relatives. These issues would plague the three Bulleid Pacific classes to such an extent that many of them were rebuilt by British Railways in the 1950s into a more conventional design which utilised the strengths of the class while altering or replacing many of the issues that Bulleid built into the engines as he used them as a testing bed for some of his more modern ideas. In particular, the major problems with the West Country Class were: 

Adhesion problems: the lighter load on their driving axles meant that they were even more prone to wheelslip than the larger Merchant Navy class, requiring very careful control when starting a heavy train - there are several surviving videos of these engines struggling to start a train due to their wheelslip. 

High fuel consumption - these engines were hungry, and this was in many ways highlighted during the 1948 locomotive exchanges where the West Country Class burnt 13.5 kg/km as opposed to the 9.02 kg/km of the T9 class that they replaced - for reference, the West Country Class’ coal consumption is comparable to the Gresley A1 Pacifics prior to the exchange trials of 1925 - a number which was dropped to roughly 10 kg/km after they were modified into the A3 class. 

Restricted driver visibility due to the air-smoothed casing and soft steam exhaust from the multiple-jet blastpipe. The exhaust problem was never adequately resolved, and smoke continued to beat down onto the casing while moving, obscuring the driver's vision.

Maintenance problems: the chain-driven valve gear proved to be expensive to maintain and subject to rapid wear, which was particularly problematic during the Post War period, as British Rail focused on availability rather than high quality maintenance. 

Leaking: leaks from the oil bath onto the wheels caused oil to splash onto the boiler lagging. Once saturated with oil, the lagging attracted coal dust and ash, which provided combustible material, and sparks from heavy braking would set the lagging on fire underneath the air-smoothed casing. The fires were also attributed to oil overflowing from axlebox lubricators onto the wheels when stationary, to be flung upwards into the boiler lagging in service. In either case, the local fire brigade would be called to put the fire out, with cold water coming into contact with the hot boiler causing stress to the casings, meaning these un-rebuilt locomotives would have warped casings, the result of a lagging fire!

All of these strengths and flaws tell a notable story about the kind of engine Rebecca may have been in real life: an engine with extremely good power and speed, but with difficulty at slow speeds and design issues that could have dangerous and rather embarrassing unintended consequences. This is a brilliant basis for a character, and it really irks me how little of all of this characterisation gold that Mattel ended up using - while it is consistent with how they treat their newer characters, it is also a real shame. Especially considering that from all of this, it is really not hard to build a genuinely interesting character that wouldn’t feel too out of place in the Railway Series or Classic series. 

Firstly, based on the high coal consumption and severe maintenance and wheelslip issues, we can suggest that Rebecca is a bit clumsy and worries about how others perceive her. Her class was large enough for this to be less apparent back on the Southern, but perhaps she was one of the worst for it, so she was teased mercilessly - and so after having moved to Sodor, she fears how the other engines will treat her. To cover for these insecurities, Rebecca acts standoffish or gruff, wanting to keep the other engines at a distance so they can’t find out about her flaws and tease her for them - already very different from her original characterisation, but far more interesting as it makes her one of the few new NWR engines to actively try and push both steam and diesel engines away. Furthermore, her excellent steaming abilities and fast speeds in service could translate into Rebecca being somewhat reckless or a speed demon, wanting to use her strengths to both hide her weaknesses and as something she enjoys. Rebecca has an air-smoothed casing, and it may help her feel the wind better at speed, like Spencer with his streamlining. Quite simply, by using her basis as a starting-point for her personality, building up character-traits from strengths and flaws of the class, we can construct an interesting and different characterisation that draws people in, similarly to how the Reverend Awdry did with his eight famous engines. Better yet, it means that once the other characters crack open this more standoffish side to Rebecca, we can still see the kind and clumsy Rebecca from the TVS, but it feels more natural and rewarding to go through a journey to get there and if it’s directed only to her close friends, while also meaning that we the audience can still see her gruff side when dealing with unknowns or characters she dislikes. 

There is also the fact that by considering her class basis, show writers can find interesting stories or take other issues with Rebecca’s class to incorporate into her personality. For example, the low-visibility created by the air-smoothed casing could translate into eyesight problems for Rebecca that she tries to hide because she fears engines would tease her for them, potentially culminating in Rebecca passing a red signal and getting into a crash. Maybe she doesn’t like fire or hates the works because of bad memories, meaning Rebecca hides any mechanical faults until they cause her to break down on the main line. 

By building her character around her class basis, we can develop an alternative personality for Rebecca that naturally stands strongly around other engines - especially as there are very few other Southern Railway engines on Sodor who could see Rebecca’s gruff and cold attitude as the defence mechanism it is. It also gives Rebecca a strong connection to Henry, who acted practically the same when he first arrived on Sodor to hide his steaming problems, making him sympathetic to Rebecca and opening the two up to a long-term arc that ends with Henry having helped Rebecca grow into the happy, cheerful and clumsy engine from the series before leaving. Her recklessness could translate into a rivalry or competition with Gordon, who is far more responsible and meticulous with his express due to his experience and the pressure that has been put on him. 

However, this is not the only way to build a better characterisation for Rebecca, the other option being to make Rebecca into a foil for other main characters. 

Part 5: Rebecca as a Foil: 

The other way to build Rebecca’s character into something that flows naturally with the other, previously introduced Steam Team members with making her more unique and interesting is to build it around the concept of the foil character. A foil character is a character who contrasts with another character, typically contrasting with the protagonist - a strong example of foil characters are Edward and Gordon, or Thomas and Diesel 10. Rebecca could quite easily fall into the position of being a strong foil character to the three big engines, more specifically James and Gordon, who are without a solid foil character to be contrasted against since Edward’s departure. In BWBA, when Nia arrived, she was considered to be closer to Thomas and Percy than Gordon or James, leaving them without a natural opposite. Rebecca has all of the strengths and weaknesses to fill this role. 

For the first option, using the personality the series gives Rebecca, we get the following scenario: Rebecca arrives on Sodor and is both an express engine and a mixed-traffic engine. When she arrives, instead of fumbling her first Express badly, she succeeds, and James and Gordon become worried about their status and jealous of her high speeds. Remember, prior to the codification of the characters into one or two jobs by CGI, James was a common replacement for Gordon on the express, and having his role as secondary express engine threatened would be a major blow to his ego. Worse yet, Rebecca likes pulling trucks, and is thus both similar but also a complete narrative opposite to the pair. Other engines like her for her kindness and helpfulness, even if it does get her in trouble when she doesn’t get her own work done on time - which Gordon and James exploit to make rude remarks about her. 

Already, Rebecca is a natural foil for Gordon and James, being similar enough for viewers to compare one to the other while also being different enough that her positive traits are highlighted against their negative ones. 

Then, Gordon could discover her hidden clumsiness and wheelslip problems, exploiting them to cause her embarrassment - something that has previously happened to James and when Rebecca is reprimanded for the resulting incident, he remembers his own struggles with wheelslip. This makes him more sympathetic to both Rebecca and the audience, and places him on a path towards apologising to Rebecca for how he spoke to her - while Gordon enjoys having the express to himself again. This could follow naturally towards an endpoint where Gordon gets his comeuppance and Rebecca is accepted into the Steam Team, having been a natural foil to both and developed close character relationships based on how she is positioned in contrast to Gordon and James. The series then progresses to seeing Rebecca act in opposition to the pair, as well as trying to one-up them, being either the protagonist or antagonist depending on who the hero of the story is. 

The second option is to use the character made for Rebecca in the previous part - the one built out of her basis and its issues - to turn Rebecca into a strong foil to Gordon and Henry, as well as potentially to Diesel or Thomas. This would begin with Rebecca arriving and acting recklessly with the express, being a speed demon where  Gordon demands professionalism due to his experience. This startles CGI Henry, who is also not a fan of recklessness and places her at odds with them but also potentially makes her interesting to James, who is himself quite reckless. Furthermore, Rebecca’s standoffish behaviour and grandstanding alienates engines like Thomas or Percy, while being very similar to how Gordon, Henry and James acted during their younger years, forcing the three to be confronted with how they used to act, reminding them of their old selves (BWBA is so obsessed with flashbacks and dream sequences, so this would be a good opportunity for them to use classic series moments to help flesh out all three and Rebecca here). 

This could build into Henry recognising the traits he used to hide his insecurities before he was rebuilt, helping to shift how the audience sees Rebecca and giving Henry an arc where he helps Rebecca learn to trust other engines and accept friendships - though notably not Gordon and James, who she sees as being the most likely to make fun of her. This helps Henry gain his classic series confidence back, giving him a boost to stand up and tell the Fat Controller that he wants to move, as well as the confidence to push back against Gordon when the big engine gets angry about the change. The series then follows Rebecca as she argues with James and Gordon, with engines taking sides depending on the episode - including  Thomas potentially absolutely hating Rebecca due to his alliance and friendship with Gordon.

Finally, Rebecca’s actions and attitude could help spur Diesel into recognising some of these negative traits in himself, finally ending the character arc that was attempted with Springtime for Diesel. 

Both of these options really focus on taking these established characters and growing them using Rebecca’s characterisation and unique position as the new big engine at Tidmouth, while also building off of Rebecca’s character strengths to make her stand out as unique too. Remember, Rebecca is the same size and strength as Gordon - the series hasn’t seen a NWR engine of comparable size to Gordon since Hiro was introduced, and he was neither an express engine nor a candidate for the Steam Team, so he was never a credible threat to Gordon. And before Hiro, the last engine of that size was Murdoch right the way back in Series 7, who never made it beyond the model series era. Rebecca has a real potential to be this threat to Gordon, being the first engine of such size introduced in almost a decade - she can pull express trains as well as Gordon while showing up James and being mixed-traffic and versatile like Henry. This is what irks me - Rebecca had everything going for her before she debuted, and got none of it. 

What is even more painful is the fact that there are an infinite number of ways to further develop and build her character or other characterisations to give her that take inspiration from the source material while still being fresh and interesting - for example, what if Rebecca’s clumsiness came from her being a static exhibit, possibly one at a children’s theme park which would explain the bright colours. She could be so kind and cheerful as a way to handle the pain of watching her siblings be scrapped - something that she could bond with Oliver over. The point is that Rebecca had and still has potential but needs a lot more effort put into her than what she got in canon. 

Part 6: Characters to Pair off with Rebecca: 

This brings me to my final core part to this long, and slightly ridiculous dissertation: who to pair Rebecca up with to best build her character and insert her into this universe while feeling natural and potentially giving them some more screen time and character dynamics outside of their usual social circles. 

For this, I decided not to look at Gordon, Henry or James, seeing as they got a lot of consideration in the previous parts, where they were core components of building up Rebecca’s character while also naturally removing Henry from the Steam Team. The following ten characters are engines who I feel would be some of the most interesting to pair up with Rebecca earlier on in the series, to help her bed into the series and give a wide range of popular or interesting characters for viewers to connect her to: 

1: Rosie: Rosie is a USATC s100, a class that worked at Southampton when Rebecca would have been in service! These two potentially have history, and even if they don’t, Rosie would be one of the first engines to realise why Rebecca is acting so standoffish and breaks through to her, seeing as she would have known the class from her younger days. Maybe they become confidants once Rosie manages to break through Rebecca’s facade? Maybe Rebecca decides she prefers Vicarstown and we go back to the Classic-era ensemble cast? The opportunities here are great, and it has the potential to give Rosie some real backstory too! 

2: Salty: Salty also worked at Southampton when Rebecca would have been in service, his class having been introduced in 1962, giving up to five years’ worth of potential overlap. Though it’s less likely the pair would have crossed paths, Salty would still know a lot about the West Country Class. He could potentially even float the idea of her getting rebuilt like a number of her siblings, which would add some real-life facts to the series! It would also be interesting to see Rebecca avoid Salty because she doesn’t want to be exposed by him - remember, she was in service at the end of BR, and really wouldn’t trust diesels based on what they did. 

3: Thomas: Thomas’ class also worked at Southampton when Rebecca would have been in service! However, Thomas would not have personally been at Southampton which means the connection is a little looser. Instead, he could have heard about them from a sibling, or maybe Stepney? Imagine Thomas being really excited to meet this new engine who he’s heard all these positive things about and then it’s this standoffish, grumpy engine who Gordon says is dangerous at speed. It would make for such an interesting dynamic and we could see the cheeky and blunt Thomas from the early series again! 

4: Oliver: These two both made it through the darkest days of BR and survived, and both are also very proud of their achievements - these being Rebecca’s speed and Oliver’s bravery - which could make a scenario where the two hype each other up, much to their own detriment. It would also be interesting to see how Toad would fit into this, seeing as Rebecca is quite reckless and Toad would be opposed to such a thing - and could create a really interesting dynamic where Oliver is forced to pick which of the two he believes during an episode. I can see Oliver being someone Rebecca trusts due to their shared experiences, and it gives Oliver some spotlight. 

5: Emily: Emily was what Rebecca is - an express engine with wheelslip issues who is considered to be one of the best engines of their time. Emily is also an engine who has some issues with CGI-era characterisation and could really do with being revitalised, so why not work with it? Emily tries to be nice and kind with Rebecca, only to keep hitting brick walls and reverting to her old, bossy ways to try and force the new engine to do what Emily wants - bonus points if this is held as being the right thing to do in that situation! It could also play into her getting her number, maybe by rescuing Rebecca from an accident she got into? 

6: Sir Handel: Sir Handel is another engine who desperately needs their characterisation revitalised, and Rebecca is a great chance! Sir Handel considers himself an express engine, and meeting Rebecca puffs him up as she regales him with tales of her speed. This plays into Sir Handel’s cockiness and he gets himself into trouble - and then he decides to get payback in whatever way possible, and we see the reverse of the situation where Sir Handel’s stories get Rebecca all fired up and she gets her own comeuppance. This would not only reintroduce Sir Handel, but also could set the foundations for Duke to return, with references to the MSR. 

7: RWS Flying Scotsman: I specify RWS Scott because I want the kinder, more humble version we got in the RWS to the version we got in the CGI era. Seriously - this engine has just been saved from scrap and given a second chance and his first action is to antagonise his only living sibling? I want him trying to be a voice of reason to Rebecca, seeing as he is uniquely placed to know the consequences of wheelslip - something he also has; as well as recklessness - Scott was the first to officially hit 100mph, so he knows a thing or two! Even more, Rebecca might look up to Scott, based on his fame, though his stories may lead to her being more reckless! 

8: BoCo: Remember I mentioned that the West Country Class caught on fire? Imagine a story with that, with BoCo (a Class 28 infamous for catching fire) as Rebecca’s foil. It could begin with BoCo backfiring and Rebecca making fun of him for it due to her disdain for the diesels who replaced her class before she suffers a similar fate when her boiler lagging catches fire and it’s BoCo who has to help her get her train home. It would be a great way for Rebecca to learn that diesels aren’t all bad, as well as giving her someone new to be friends with - and it would reintroduce BoCo! This could also help draw Rebecca down the branch to meet Bill and Ben… 

9: Molly: Overtly shy Molly and secretly shy Rebecca who covers her shyness up with aggression would make for such an interesting dynamic! I can imagine Molly gathering up all of her courage to speak to Rebecca only to be shot down (unintentionally) and then never want to talk to Rebecca again, and it’s only when Rebecca realises that the bigger engine tries to hunt Molly down - possibly with hilarious consequences. This idea would really work well if you popped in Mavis, who would want to help Molly and stand up to Rebecca. It would also be interesting to reintroduce Molly, especially with Mattel wanting more gender equality. 

10: Mike: This would be a case of grumpy, standoffish Mike versus standoffish-to-hide-insecurities Rebecca! These two would be about as productive as a house on fire. Literally! These two would naturally bump heads in the worst way possible, and it would create incredible comedy and infinite story potential. This would be even better if you added some inferiority complex on Mike’s side, based on the fact he’s never seen an engine this big before - seeing as Rebecca is the only engine of this size able to visit Arlesburgh. They would rile each other right the way up the wall and it would probably never get any better. 

To conclude, Rebecca had real potential as a character - she had an iconic basis, good timing for her introduction and the role she was aiming to fill in many ways needed to be filled; Henry’s character assassination had made him hard to watch for a long time, and moving him out of the spotlight to give writers some time to rehabilitate him was long overdue. It’s just a real massive shame that they managed to fail so badly. By failing to properly plan and develop Rebecca, Mattel created a background character that they tried to have fill a major role that she simply was not able to fill. There were many better choices in the show to take Rebecca’s role, not least of all Molly - a yellow tender engine who was shy and a bit clumsy. By neglecting to properly integrate Rebecca into the series and then giving the show writers very little personality to work with, Mattel ensured that Rebecca would be a BWBA-exclusive character, an engine who never managed to gain half of the popularity of other characters who had comparable runtimes. Engines like Murdoch, Molly and BoCo have far better legacies than Rebecca, and it comes down to how they were treated by the series. All three were introduced with something that made them unique, be it through their interactions with other characters or through their own unique characterisation. Rebecca is a grim reminder to people developing characters for stories - especially characters being added later in the series to a cast of strong, notable and even iconic characters - that these late introductions need a lot of effort and carefully designed arcs to make them viable and allow them to become embedded into the series alongside those they share the screen with. 

Rebecca is one of those characters who is enough of a blank slate that it is easy for people to project onto her. In some cases, this is useful to a character’s legacy - Fergus, Molly, and even Smudger all have been remembered far more fondly by the fanbase than their limited appearances ought to warrant, however this is mostly because they were given a strong enough personality by the show that these projections had preexisting characterisations to connect to. Rebecca was given far too little, and in redesigning her character, I feel like I’ve gained a new understanding of just how far Mattel had pushed the show prior to its cancellation. By expanding the series to include new characters from around the world while also demanding episodes with new, untested characters back on Sodor, the writing team was rushed to complete episodes with a plethora of new faces that had no substance to back them up. There was no chance for these foreign engines to become anything meaningful while Mattel demanded enough new characters to fill an entirely different series, nor was there time for many of the characters back on Sodor to develop meaningfully while the writers scrambled to try and create far too many new characters from scratch. 

And it was the characterisations that suffered for it. 

Once again, this was not an attempt to convince people to like or dislike the version of Rebecca found in BWBA, but instead look into why Rebecca as a character failed to stand up against the other Steam Team members or even many of the more notable secondary faces found in the TVS at this point in the series. This can be boiled down to comparisons to her predecessor, a lack of effort from Mattel to give Rebecca a chance to develop and the decision to use cliched characteristics to create a version of Rebecca that never was going to capture many viewers’ imaginations. This was also an attempt to redevelop Rebecca into someone that can be used by the fandom to rehabilitate her image, or at the least to point out what went wrong and what could have been done to fix it. Maybe someday Rebecca will get the redevelopment she deserved, or perhaps she will be left to the annals of Thomas history, becoming just another footnote in the ever-expanding list of characters who couldn’t stand the test of time. 

Thank you for reading.

It’s All A Fucking Joke, Right

In the few months I’ve been modding at fuckyeahasexual and touring ace Tumblr, there’s been a very. Steady. Stream of info that detail horrifically abusive situations and overall poor mental unhealth. Two a week in the inbox if I’m lucky, usually around seven-ten.

And there’s been so many, I can officially categorize all 500+ of these kinds of asks and submissions into an extensive bulletlist of Why Asexual Exclusionary Radicalism Is Incredibly Toxic And Shitty;

Coming Out To Family, Friends, And Employers

“My parents keep telling me that I’m something else, and it’s making me doubt my sense of judgement, not just about my sexual identity, but also about everything in general.”

“My family, friends, and co-workers keep referring to me as an inanimate object in a manner that’s clearly meant to humiliate and devastate me. Nothing I say will get them to stop.”

“My parents vocally/bodily forced me to undergo medical examinations, some of them concerning my sexual organs, many of them concerning blood tests and other trauma-centric procedures.”

“My family is intervening with my private life by changing my schedule to include exercise, socialization, friend influences, and whatever they think can ‘change’ me.”

“My friends/co-workers no longer respect my bodily boundaries when I came out to them, because they no longer see me as someone who should be respected. They regularly touch, fondle, grope, and prod me without permission, and/or verbally harass me, and don’t take my objections seriously.”

“My family, friends, and co-workers no longer just harass me, but also anyone I’m currently dating because they view my significant other as pathetic, underserved, or even being abused.”

First Few Days Of Dating

“My date got irrationally angry and confrontational when I came out to them, in a manner that made me fearful.” (SO many of these.)

“My date immediately lost any respect they had for my boundaries, no longer asked for consent, and {tried to} force themselves upon me.” (A lot of these, too)

“My date tried to verbally circumvent any boundaries and issues I confessed to, and it made me feel like I was in danger.”

“I didn’t come out to my date at first, and when they found out, they radically changed their behavior in an attempt to control and manipulate our new relationship to their benefit.”

Long-Term Relationships

“My partner has forcefully and radically changed our long-term relationship after finding out about my asexuality, and I’m now trapped and controlled in a way that I wasn’t before.”

“My partner broke up with me/is fighting with me because of my asexuality, and trying to make it seem like I’m hurting them. It’s made me doubt myself and my ability to trust my own intentions.”

“My partner is slowly changing from what was once supportive of my asexuality, and I’m wondering when I have the right to be worried and when I’d be overreacting. I’m aware of the worst case scenario, but I also worry that I’m being selfish and childish - which are things I’ve been told all throughout my asexual experience.”

Self-Care And Self Development

“I don’t trust my ability to say either yes or no in sexual situations, and this has extended to my life in general. I don’t feel comfortable in my ability to self-determinate.”

“The lack of authority, definition, and schooling of the concept of asexuality has made me very uncomfortable with what I think I am, and that uncertainty haunts me every waking moment.”

“I think it’s too late/too early to tell if I’m asexual, but the longer I hesitate, the worse my mental health and emotional wellbeing gets. I’m effectively stuck.”

“I see no benefit in coming out, or even identifying as asexual. There’s no positivity, role models, or supportive community for what I consider a big and scary part of my overall identity.”

“I think this was sexual abuse, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfish and childish.”

“I think I was treated badly by my parents/friends/partner, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfish and childish.”

“I want to believe that I’m deserving of equal freedom and human respect paid to other, not asexual people, but people tell me I’m being selfish and childish.”

“No one encourages this part of me. And that makes me feel forgotten and abandoned in general.”

Shut the fuck up about your petty beef with tumblr bloggers and youtubers and Archie comics or whatever. I literally do not care, I can’t care. I see these messages every goddamn day - this post was written and drafted a month ago, and I very easily compiled most of this bulletpoint list from scratch, just by eyeing what I see in the askbox and what comes across my dash. 

‘Ace discourse’ anger is empty and so meaningless. This is what I see by being part of this one 17k follow asexual ask blog for maybe half a year. I am so Done with all the faux rage posts and all the false positivity about how it’s ok to NOT be ace and all the acephobia that falls perfectly in line with the gaslighting typical of acephobia-101 while also having the audacity to claim it not so.

This is what’s real and I want to bleed it into your goddamn eyes.

Know that I am going to get pretty serious here, as this post is about Punkflower. I am going to talk about the age situation, the blatant racism ABOUT this ship, and to also talk about the ship itself*. There is also some talk about the shippers/non-shippers + Punkflower antis in general.

[*nothing negative! just like.. discussing it as a whole, because everybody needs to be aware of some important things. the shippers, non-shippers/people on neutral ground, AND the haters/antis.]

There is a BIG wall of text incoming, but all of it is organized to its very best at what I could do!! I first wrote this in docs, I did my best to make it not a whole chaotic mess to read through. It's a big post, but there's a lot of spacing and some text is coloured, so it will be very easy to read.

This is a very detailed and THROUGH post, so it is slightly recommended to read on computer for the best viewing experience.

[It's not needed as you can still just read on your phone/etc, I do want you lovely people to have the best viewing experience possible.]

There will be an expand button, so I will not clog your feed and the tags.

TDLR;

Dear punkflower shippers,

your prayers have been ANSWERED. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT SHIPPING PUNKFLOWER NOW 🙏

punkflower shippers, do not live in fear no more, for I am here now.

Sincerely, 

tumblr user: godunforgiving

Edited Note (06/21); FYI, I am muting this! Read the edit change log at the end of this post for more information. If you have any concerns or inquiries regarding this post, do not hesitate and feel free to DM me!

punkflower talk/analysis(?) + talking about Hobie’s age

This entire post is a discussion of various things, of my own thoughts and opinions! Some of the talk is about the posts + comments I have seen other people say about this ship [mainly questioning and worried ones.] All of the pieces of information that I knew were scattered, so I wanted to gather all of what I could find, and put it in a singular post for those still worrying.

[Also where others can actually just refer to this post and just read thru here first, instead of having to spend a lot of time going through the Punkflower tag to desperately find info!]

I would have gotten this finished and posted days ago, but you know, usual IRL things slowed me down, and I had to spend my day in the ER yesterday, lol.. I’m okay as of now! Just have to take it easy, but I really did want to finish writing my ass off with this post, since I know it’s important to me and for many others out there.

Take your time to read through this, and please absolutely feel free to add any of your input/extra knowledge/anything that I should add onto this post. DMs can be the best, or just through the comments can suffice, because I can and will edit anything into this post [that is accurate aka there is backed up evidence/sources to go along with it.] If you do want to see something added here, just tell me and I'll see if I can manage!

I genuinely hope that this post can be helpful to you, as it will be helpful for me!

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Please know that; I will directly quote from many people, as all of them will be credited properly by being mentioned down below and leaving their username (that is linked back) with their respective quotes, because their own pieces of text really helped build this post! I cannot thank each person enough.

Do not be a piece of shit and go after or ‘witch hunt’ any of them. Respect their own privacy and being.

users mentioned (IOOA): @comfortingnightmare, @luvvnobo, @ghostspider-isms, @saltylemonade13, @artisan-is-bored, @bellamer, @uglynavel, @peachypea0ny (fyi, site is not allowing me to tag), @crownecromancer, @raspberryjars, @spideyzpoolsp, @hamiltonforpowerpoint

[If you are one of the mentioned people, and you want yourself to be removed or become anonymous, please let me know ASAP!]

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Notes:

If you are colourblind (some of the text is coloured fyi! colours used are blue, pink, and purple), or have difficulty reading text due to it being too small, or can't read the font, etc, please let me know! I can give you a google docs link of this entire post that is best suited for your needs. No, you will not be a burden to me. Your needs are very important, and I will want to assist with the best that I can do with that!

I, godunforgiving, am on a mix of a positive + neutral ground on the topic of shipping Punkflower. I absolutely adore the comic!Punkflower, and I am fond of ATSV!Punkflower with the way I view it. Reason why I said neutral, know that I am not against the ships by any means!! But I guess why I say that is because there wasn’t a lot of canon media to consume [ATSV!Punkflower], and I want more [Also note that I have NOT seen the movie yet.] I don’t usually ‘do’ shipping when it comes to various franchises, I guess it’s mainly just not my thing? But I do know that I’ve come to like Punkflower.

I do not ‘do’ discourses, nor do I intend to actively join them! This is my first time doing something like this / this being my first ‘discourse’, yet I hope for it to be my last. I made this post with the pure intention to help the Punkflower shippers. Do know that!! I know that many people do not like the topic of discourses, but this one and the problems I’ve seen revolving around Punkflower, I just have to say something. Bc idk if anybody else is going to [with the way I did this post], considering the mess that occurred days ago, but someone has to and has to do it properly.

I am autistic, so I may process words + information differently, or even ‘incorrectly’. So if a sentence doesn’t make sense, due to perhaps my misuse of grammar, etc, please do not hesitate to ask/reach out, and I can do my best to re-explain it to you.

Negative comments [and comments directly to this post where the person is actually spreading misinfo], will be deleted. Know that if you decide that you disagree with this post, then okay! I am not bothering you, just as I hope that you will revert to ignoring me, instead of hating on me. Please have the common decency to just be kind or even don’t say anything at all, and carry on with your day.

If you have any concerns regarding this post, do not hesitate to reach out to me.

this post was originally inspired by a friend, then originally created for @feuille-morte, but it is finished for the rest of the punkflower fans, ily all. take care of yourselves!! anything for these cute silly little guys ok (and the entire punkflower nation)

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let’s get started with an introduction.

“what is Punkflower?”

Punkflower is a slash [aka queer] relationship between two black male teenagers, Hobie Brown and Miles Morales. Usually, it is perceived a romantic relationship, as some other people only see the pairing as a platonic duo and such. I do not know more forms of Punkflower, but I will use the 'main' two forms in this post. Comic![SG!]Punkflower [SG is Spider-Geddon, a comic series first released on Sept 2018], and Across the Spider-Verse aka ATSV!Punkflower.

Think of it as the same ships with the same characters, but in different fonts.

Comic!SG!Punkflower has existed for nearly 5 years now, likely first existing sometime in late 2018 to early-mid 2019. Both Miles and Hobie are very close in age in the comics, at around 16 to 17 years old. Away from Spider-Geddon(?), but still on the topic of comics, Hobie is still 16-17 in the comics.

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“people are saying Punkflower is a problematic ship!”

The main [and probably only] source of this misinformation, is from a clip that was cropped to be posted with the intention of spreading heavy misinformation (We will get into that next.) So, as far as I am aware, and know; Punkflower antis are throwing around p/do allegations, because they hate the ship and they are outraged with people enjoying it. This hate is clearly rooted with racism, and homophobia. So, no, Punkflower is not a minor x adult ship!

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“the interview talk, what happened, and what is actually real?”

If you’ve watched the interview, you can easily see that they were talking about the brainstorming process of developing Hobie's early ideas for his character. A director mentioned that in the early concept stage, Hobie was originally going to be 19-20 [This wasn’t even our Hobie, but Prowler Hobie.]

A person cut a very small clip of the mentioned interview, and uploaded it, a clip that was EXTREMELY out of context. 

The uploader cut out the part explaining that Hobie’s ‘original’ age had changed as his character was being developed.

So from this, and no context given, a lot of people were instantly quick to hate; since it was on purpose to make the entire ship, AND those who enjoyed the ship, look extremely bad. What happened was not okay, yet this disgusting behaviour is at an attempt to be justified [and those people are trying to justify literal racism and homophobia.]

“19-20 thing that the directors mentioned were Hobie’s early designs ideas but those eventually changed as his character changed. Even one of the directors said its up to interpretation plus even his VA was all hinty towards Gwen and hobie so honestly its up to you what his age is" - comfortingnightmare

As soon as the clip came out, I had started to see a number of people saying that, apparently, Hobie looked like he was in his 20s to his 30s** (while also throwing subtle/discreet hits towards the Punkflower ship), but this was after the clip came out.

**Literally saw someone on Tumblr say that he looked like 28, and trying to shut down the idea of Hobie being a teenager. Like be completely serious with me right now..

Things don’t quite add up here. This was because of WHAT Hobie only looked like, and now it just has to be racially motivated, as there are no solid explanations or reasonings for their behaviour and disgust. Those people just look bad [as they should.]

So, no, Hobie is not 19-20. Another director had confirmed that Hobie’s age is UP TO INTERPRETATION.

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[TLDR; The interview got taken completely out of context from a clip that made people start throwing SERIOUS accusations left and right.. Since more people actually later found out that the clip was taken out of context [instead of doing research], the situation died down, but people are walking on eggshells now. The haters were being desperate likely because Punkflower is a black queer/mlm relationship, since there is no solid explanation for this hating.]

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“So.. what can we interpret Hobie’s age as?”

That is where I come in! I have many reasons that can help you decide what Hobie's age is to you. And those many reasons are speculated on Hobie's age being 16-17, as many users already guess that Hobie's age is equivalent to a teenager's age. I also believe this idea, as there are many things that already support this thought process.

[But if you like.. (god, I hope nobody does) go through this list and conclude that Hobie is 18+ and continue to ship that Hobie and 15 yr old Miles (or any of the minors).. GTFOH.]

1. Hobie Brown in other media (I’m talking about the comics for instance) is commonly shown for Hobie to be a teenager at either 16 or 17 years old.

“Hobie is in fact labeled as ‘badmouthed teenager’ since 2014 and is 16-17 in the comics and that just because he doesnt have a confirmed/canonical age in ATSV, hes still in the age range of a teenager (16-18)" - luvvnobo

2. Topic of the spider-bite. 

ATSV!Hobie is likely to be 16-17 years old (18 at the latest), meaning that he would have been bit at the ages of 13-15. So IF Hobie was bit 3 years ago / at 14 years old, then he would be 16-17.

Realistically, this really could have happened, considering Hobie’s living conditions! [aka what led to Hobie getting bit by a radioactive spider in the comics.] If he indeed gets bit at 14 years old (like how Miles and Gwen got bit at that age for example), then either 16 or 17 yrs old.

Again, with how he lived; if he got bit at 13 = 15-16 years old in crrnt events of ATSV. [If you don’t know of Hobie’s conditions, in the comics I’m pretty sure he, like, basically lived on the streets as a homeless teenager]

“During the "Spider-Verse" storyline, the Earth-138 version of Spider-Man is revealed to be Hobart Brown, originally operating as Spider-Punk. He is a homeless teenager who was transformed by a spider that was irradiated as part of President Norman Osborn's toxic waste dumping.” - Spider-Punk: Wikipedia

The topic of the bite / needing to know if Hobie was (x) age when he got bit, isn’t very serious, as he is already grouped with 3 kids.

3. It would be unlikely (and also weird) for a four man crew to be 3/4 teenagers and 1 adult;

WHILE ALSO implying that the mentioned ‘adult’ and one of the mentioned teenagers could’ve had something going on. [Even if nothing really happened (keyword = implying), and how Pavitr treated it in that way, implies that Hobie isn’t that much older than the three.] [I would have kept this reason combined with the Spider bite topic aka reason No.2, since it’s actually referenced off of pastelnightgale’s post, just that this paragraph alone is solid enough as a separate reason.]

4. Hobie’s mannerisms.

Note, I haven’t seen the movie, but I have seen many clips. From those clips, he’s definitely a teenager at least, it made me feel like Hobie was 16 or 17 years old. I’ve asked two of my brothers; they said that he definitely was their age [both being 17.]

“my two cents on the age debate is like. hobie doesn’t have the vibes of an adult even if his age is up to “interpretation”. like i’m eighteen and bro has definitely gotta be younger than that. he makes my “stupid younger sibling” sense go haywire." - ghostspider-isms

5. If you look up “how old is hobie brown”

You will already see many people speculating that Hobie is likely to be around the same age range as Miles and Gwen [if not a bit older.]

Again, Hobie is already 16-17 years old in the comics. 

“in the spiderverse, we have seen that it is common for most spiders (gwen and miles specifically) to get bitten around 14. hobie states he’s been spider-man for three years, meaning he’s most likely 16-17." - artisan-is-bored

6. “Like if Hobie is really 19+ then why is it only a problem with Punkflower?? Wouldn’t the whole love triangle thing be a problem????" - saltylemonade13

Yes. It would be a SERIOUS problem. It also would make the other ships [Chaipunk, others with minors in them] very problematic and illegal ships. But Hobie isn't 18+.

7. Ageing down process happening to various characters in Spider Verse, and Hobie non affected?

If Gwen and the other spiders are aged down in Spiderverse, then it doesn’t make sense that Hobie was not aged down like the others.

8. Hobie literally hangs out around teenagers.

If an adult is constantly hanging out with other children, then that obviously would be the first problem. I wouldn’t really need to keep talking any more about this one. Because if a 19-20 year old was spending a majority of his time around young teenagers, ages ranging 15 through 17, and not really with anybody else his age or above, then yes, that’s already weird.

“it’s also implied that miles is jealous of gwen and hobie. why would the directors make a key plot point of the story be that hobie is a grown ass man hanging out with a bunch of teenagers? and that he might have a thing with one of them???" - artisan-is-bored

9. Genetics do not matter within age.

This is one of my most common quotes by now. Hobie is indeed very tall at almost 6 ft, yes. No, it does not mean that he is above 18+ years old. Hobie can be over 6 ft tall and still be 16-17 years old.

I have seen so many teenagers at drastically different heights, but still be the same age. Many of them being over 6 ft [180 cm], and still being in my age range, and having met a 5’10” 8th grader [aka 13 yrs old] years ago. Both of my previously-mentioned brothers are 6 ft and over 6 ft, yet they are only 17.

“people can look one age and be another." - artisan-is-bored

“hobie’s description as a character. hobie is a foul mouthed TEENAGER. that has been his description for the past five years." - artisan-is-bored

10. “how do i tell them Punkflower has been a thing since 2018 or 2019 and they have interacted in the comics (they are close in age)" - luvvnobo

11. “He has to be an adult, because he goes to pubs!!” Let’s be absolutely HONEST here.

“dude is BFF’s with the Riri of his universe, she can probably whip up a fake ID in no time and even if Riri isn’t in the Spiderverse, he still gets around and knows people. he’s definitely cool with someone who makes fake ID’s." - bellamer

What bellamer said. To add onto this, a pub is different from a BAR as well.

If you look up “what is a pub vs bar” your first result will be this.

To also add, all bars in England aren’t considered pubs.

“If you’re 16 or under, you may be able to go to a pub (or premises primarily used to sell alcohol) if you’re accompanied by an adult. However, this isn’t always the case. It can also depend on the specific conditions for that premises. It’s illegal to give alcohol to children under 5." From the official GOV of the UK website

But literally, let’s be honest here, Hobie would already know at least one person who will help him get in a pub, if he cannot do so himself. If Hobie is constantly going to pubs, then that does not mean he is getting drinks 24/7 when he is there, unless stated otherwise. Pubs focus on serving food and to give drinks [upon request] to go along with the meal.

Before 1995, children under the age of 14 were NOT allowed in pubs in England and Wales. And Hobie is definitely by no means 14. He is likely 16, or 17. He can already drink, with adult supervision, at 16 in pubs. But we know that Hobie is no law-abiding Spider-man.

12. “Hobie wouldn’t be able to own his own place!”

“it’s a key part of hobie’s comic backstory that he used to be homeless. once again, the breaking the law point still stands. wouldn’t be surprised if hobie bought an apartment with a fake ID, was squatting, or was staying in some sort equivalent of the community center that he used as his main group’s operation headquarters in the comics.” - artisan-is-bored

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I do not think that another director/anybody who worked on the movie will come out and say that Hobie is actually 18+ at this point. I CAN be wrong in the future, but right now, he is not, and there are my reasons for why I strongly agree with the idea of Hobie being a teenager.

ALTHOUGH, even IF a director comes out and says that ATSV!Hobie is actually 18+, obviously all of the ATSV!ships with him and the other minors should STOP RIGHT NOW. But as of now [06/13/23 (when I first wrote this)], and from what we already know, I do not see anything wrong with ATSV!Punkflower and my views.

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The racism revolving Punkflower is disgusting.

I’ve seen a lot of people bashing Punkflower when the whole misinfo-hobie-being-19/20-situation occurred, but ONLY with Punkflower [from what I’ve seen.] I didn’t see any of this happening to the other ships that Hobie is in / shipped with Gwen, and Pavitr.

I have not seen any, quite literally nobody, complaining about any other ship that isn’t Punkflower, and it’s insanely overwhelming and confusing?? People don’t complain when it comes to Hobie x Gwen, but if it’s with two queer black boys? Huge problem all of a sudden.

“Love how when it was Hobie and Gwen no one batted an eye but as soon as people started shipping two black males together all of a sudden everyone’s disgusted and outraged” - uglynavel

“none of y’all had a problem w gwen and hobie, but when hobie started getting shipped with miles and pav? y’all got pissed. get your racist and homophobic head out of your ass. even if hobie IS an adult in the movie, that still doesn’t mean that shipping him with miles in the comics suddenly isn’t valid. newsflash, gwen is MUCH OLDER than hobie in his universe.” - artisan-is-bored

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Other quotes, that I wanted to point out, but I didn’t sort them into a spot;

“There are a lot more weird problems in the ATSV fandom, yet people are worried about Flowerpunk and whether Hobie is of age, or not. Those problems are full on grown ass people sexualizing Miles, Gwen, and likely more. There’s already stuff about Peter B. and Miles ship, and THAT is an active problem on hand. More people need to worry about all of that instead of a guy who has an up-to-interpretation age (but is strongly, likely, a 16-17 year old if not an adult.)” - peachypea0ny

“I can’t even enjoy comic versions of punkflower without me being called a pedo or having multiple fucking comments telling me over and over that punkflower is a proship.” - uglynavel

“I’m sorry it’s just really not fucking fair what In THE ACTUAL MOVIE it can imply something between Gwen and Hobie but the SECOND people started shipping two black boys together then it became a huge fucking problem, here’s the thing if Hobie is actually older and they never say that in the movie but imply something to the audience that him and a sixteen year old girl could possibly have something between them THEN THATS GROSS I DONT CARE HOW GOOD THE MOVIE IS! But Hobie is always, in other crossovers and his comics he is around 16, he has met Miles before in canon the ship’s not new, it was just small.” - crownecromancer (Edited to make sense, by me, godunforgiving.)

“punkflower is originally a comic ship, its been around for ages before atsv, its normal for shippers to crossover into different areas where the same characters are. he doesnt have an age on his wiki and why would he be said to have a love triangle with gwen if he WAS 19/20, idk why ppl have such a problem with punkflower but not with hobie and gwen??” - raspberryjars

“this is what happens when you believe in misinformation on the internet. no, there is no age gap, because hobie does not even have a canon age. if you watch the interview, instead of 10 seconds of it, he says it was early concepts of hobie. another director has confirmed his age is up to interpretation.. so. yall rlly need to stop with this, its weird asl. this whole thing was rooted in racism and homophobia, stop spreading misinformation I BEG.” - spideyzpoolsp

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Another disclaimer/notice;

PLEASE, PLEASE STOP BELIEVING IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU SEE!! EVEN IN TIKTOK OR TUMBLR!

IF it’s a piece of information that could be misinformation revolving around Punkflower or Hobie Brown, or anything, DO find out if it is real or fake asap!

I’m using a method that I remember from my elementary school that was constantly talked about [can’t believe I’d bring it up in a post about a ship years later], however it really does pay out and work anywhere else tbh. The “Stop, Think, Act method”.

STOP = Pause, if it distresses you; then take a breath to calm down, avoid doing anything on impulse aka don't do anything without thinking carefully beforehand.

THINK = Instead of the “what is the problem, what are the options, best path forward?” in the method itself, we will reuse this but change stuff up that can apply directly to this post. So after stopping and calming down, we will think carefully and review what we already KNOW. If it’s where the piece of information is easily seen/known as misinfo, then you are good. If the piece of misinfo is affecting something that we already know, then we move onto the next step.

ACT = “Proceed with the best option. Act carefully, and revise if needed.” The best option forward from thinking, is to do research, and make sure that it is actually real, and not misinformation with lies laced within. IF it is indeed misinformation, then it is the best to alert others, with proof.

If you are thinking “But why even mention that method??” The best example to use this method is with the age discourse blowup. A LOT of people believed in the misinformation very, very fast. What should’ve happened is that the mentioned method should’ve occurred early, to help prevent most of the freak out and its damages. But many users may not have thought of that, or even know the method, so it is okay. At least it calmed down a lot as of now, just that people are now likely afraid.

[Note; I am NOT blaming anybody!! I also freaked out a bit too, but I stuck to what I already knew, until I found more information. At first I heard “Hobie is 19-20!!!!” I figured that it must’ve been misinfo through what I already knew, because adding all of what I knew and this uproar of info, it just didn’t add up from what I alrd knew. but I still researched and did my homework!! Just that more people should naturally second-guess things that they are suspicious of and also be aware of that method and to apply it online, as it is already useful in real life!]

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Wrapping this post up, finally.

It’s sad to see different Punkflower fans fight each other. But it’s also outrageous and annoying to see the plat!Punkflower shippers, who see Miles and Hobie strictly in a brotherly relationship, to throw the term ‘!ncest / pseudo-!ncest’ against the romantical Punkflower shippers.. Like holy shit, that doesn’t make you any better. Can people, please, stop throwing serious accusations against other people so nonchalantly?

These accusations are SO serious and life changing, even if it's pointed at the wrong person. But people are just too ignorant to realize that unfortunately.

“You see him (Hobie) as 19/20 who’s a big brother to the other spiders? Cool! You see him as 16/17 rebel teen amazing!” - hamiltonforpowerpoint

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End post.

Reblogs, likes, and comments of your own opinions of this post are so welcome!

Again, ily all and take care of yourselves!!

and again, if anything you think that should be added onto the post, let me know! have a great day everybody

A friend asked what’s up with the discourse, asked me to make a post, after hours of research - I absolutely fucking DELIVERED. Love you guys.

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Edit #1 (06/15); had to reformat some things since it just looked broken to me! Using the editor on mobile is a PAIN.. 0/10.

Edit #2 (06/16); an edit update! I rewrote some things (to hope to make the post sound more better), added some stuff in the notes section and some throughout the post itself, updated the crediting so the quotes used are credited and linked back to hell!!!! bc crediting others is awesome! and the post is also def over 4.2k words lol

Edit #3 (06/17); An anon told me that I was “misusing” the 'proship' term, so I edited the post. Proshitters can go to hell for all I care. To clarify, I am talking about problematic shippers. Edit #4 (06/19); oh my god 600+ notes?? i hope all of you are having an EXCELLENT month okay.. i love you guys <3 /plat

Edit #5 (06/21); I am muting this! I saw some people reply to this post, but I just do not have the ability to respond to them (Selective mutism), I did write “drafts” to them, but I do not feel like polishing it and responding. Just busy with other things, honestly! I may end up responding some time later, so yeah. If you have any concerns or inquiries regarding this post, do not hesitate and feel free to DM me!

Every once a few weeks I may check up on this post as well, until I stop altogether.

The people of Gotham could do nothing but watch in horror as the Joker killed Dr. Fenton on live TV. The doctor had moved to Gotham a little over a year ago and quickly made a name for himself by setting up clinics and shelters in the seedier parts of the city. Many had warned him of the dangers, of the criminals that would potentially target him but he didn't listen. He continued his work and soon wormed his way into the hearts of many. That's why he made a great target for the Crown Prince of Crime. Because his death would be absolutely devastating.

And it was, until someone pointed out that the good doctor seemed to be twitching behind the Joker as his gloated to the camera. That twitching soon because full on squirming and the citizens could only watch in shocked curiosity as Dr. Fenton eventually twisted out of his restraints. Then he bent down to pick up a metal pipe lying on the ground and crept towards the Joker. Understandably, many were terrified. Why wasn't the doctor using this chance to get away? People began screaming at the screens for him to escape but he just got closer. Finally he was right behind his captor and brought the pipe over his head. In one fell swoop he brought the pipe down with a satisfying crack that all could hear.

"I usually keep pretty strictly to my hippocratic oath," Dr. Fenton said. "But for you, I'm willing to make an exception."

He then proceeded to drag the Joker out of frame by the collar. The live feed ended soon after. Later, when the police arrived. Dr. Fenton was found causally sitting on some steps outside the warehouse. As they got closer, they realized the steps were actually the Joker, alive albeit barely.